Dualism

[Gingerbread Dead People]

Dualism..........The belief that both Mind and body are seperate entities existing in seperate planes even though they are conencted in some way.

I think of myself as a dualist (A substance dualist to be percise). My body is physical, it grows it ages, it regenerates and it wears away. My mind (to me) is something non-physical and belongs in a seperate plain of existence to my body. "where is my mind?" I cannot physically locate my mind, and as such all emotions and feelings are non-physical things and are sensory "bi-products" that occur in the mind, even though they may be triggered by physical events occuring in the "physical realm".

Many ppl are Monists (opposite to dualists) and believe that the mind and the body are simply one, some even believe that the existence of the mind is actually "wishful thinking" and is actually only the product of brain activity

I am interested to see what others think of the idea of Dualism (and Monism) and if anyone (else) actually cares about this topic lol. So please discuss/debate.

[please DO NOT simply state ur oppinion wihtout at least offering a reason for why u hav come to that conclusion. Also, feel free to bring personal beliefs, religion and theories in to this...but only if u dnt mind them being challenged.]

Go.......

[Furanshisu917]

Originally Posted by Gingerbread_Dead_People

[b]
Many ppl are Monists and believe that the mind and the body are simply one, some even believe that the existence of the mind is actually "wishful thinking" and is actually only the product of brain activity

for something to be a product it must exist.
but that statement goes against it.
So I have a question, if the mind is only a product of the brain, and the brain is only the product of DNA and DNA is the product of elements and elements are only a product of the "big bag" or "god" or what ever you believe in, since we are a product and we do exist does that no mean that the mind must 'exist' or else it would be the same for us and if we didnt exist we couldnt be sat here talking

[Silverstone]

Well... give yourself brain damage and try to tell me your mind is not connected with your physical self.

[Furanshisu917]

thats another thing this is all based on grammer though. you are 1 entity, the world is 1 entity, u do not call the world a bizzillionism as it has billions of species in it.
something is 1 entity. but if u want to say the body is different parts u have to take into account all its different parts not just the skin and the mind, so the brain the skin, the blood vessels the different organs etc. dualism could only aply if your body was only skin and mind, which it isnt it is hundereds of different thinsg working together to forum one entity, 1 person

the mind is your brain. they are the one thing. your thought process is ur brain working aloud.

[Gingerbread Dead People]

Originally Posted by Furanshisu917

for something to be a product it must exist.
but that statement goes against it.
So I have a question, if the mind is only a product of the brain, and the brain is only the product of DNA and DNA is the product of elements and elements are only a product of the "big bag" or "god" or what ever you believe in, since we are a product and we do exist does that no mean that the mind must 'exist' or else it would be the same for us and if we didnt exist we couldnt be sat here talking

Well As I said Im a dualist so I dnt agree wit monism, Im just using it to illustrate the opposite view that contrasts with Dualism. U do bring up a good point. But how can u be so sure that we exist in the first place? Anyway I wud actully agree with u, n my view how can the mind not exist in some form? I just happen to believe that it is a non physical entity. There is actually a thing called the "zombie theory" (or something like that), which tries to prove that it is possible for a body to exist and function without a mind. Some might say animals actually fit in to this catogary. I like the way u think tho.

Originally Posted by Furanshisu917

thats another thing this is all based on grammer though. you are 1 entity, the world is 1 entity, u do not call the world a bizzillionism as it has billions of species in it.
something is 1 entity. but if u want to say the body is different parts u have to take into account all its different parts not just the skin and the mind, so the brain the skin, the blood vessels the different organs etc. dualism could only aply if your body was only skin and mind, which it isnt it is hundereds of different thinsg working together to forum one entity, 1 person

the mind is your brain. ur brain is the auto pilot and your mind is the captain lol

Well, philosophy is hard to explain with few words, and so yes a lot of it is based on the way ppl use grammar to make their point. Im using the word entity bcuz it worked for me. I am simply grouping all the part that make a body as one physical thing for the purposes of this discussion. Also this is abotu the relastionship between the mind and body, does your spleen do calculations like ur brain does? U cud argue that the process of the brain create the mind, you couldnt really argue that ur intestine hav much to do with thinking Hope tht makes sense lol

Originally Posted by Silverstone

Well... give yourself brain damage and try to tell me your mind is not connected with your physical self.

lol that is actually a good point by damaging the brain it (probably) affects the mind which obviously suggests the mind and body are connected howver it does not explain if one is physical and the other is not. U wont believe it but there is also a theory that concerns the realtion between the mind and body when brain damage has occured.

[Furanshisu917]

Originally Posted by Gingerbread_Dead_People

There is actually a thing called the "zombie theory" (or something like that), which tries to prove that it is possible for a body to exist and function without a mind. Some might say animals actually fit in to this catogary. I like the way u think tho.

I think it basically means living with basic instinct only. but it cant be done the brain would need some sort of thought process or we would no longer become animals but stationary plants that only grow and feed through a mechanism not requiring thought

animals live with basic thought process's or else when they come to a point to make a decision they would stop and do absolutely nothing, but we know by fact they under go by flight or fight when faced with danger, which requires thought

[Gingerbread Dead People]

Originally Posted by Furanshisu917

I think it basically means living with basic instinct only. but it cant be done the brain would need some sort of thought process or we would no longer become animals but stationary plants that only grow and feed through a mechanism not requiring thought

U wud b right in thinking that it is basic instinct but I would say basic instinct is some form of thought process, I wouldnt say a plant has instinct as such. when a dog goes to eat I dont think it considers it too much it just goes for what it knows and reacts to it. Anyway, what Im really interested in here is about wether the mind is a non-physical thing that co-exists with the physical body? Or is it simply that the mind does exist in physical space like the rest of us?

Lol Ive just noticed tht edit uve added on. Reactions dont necessarily require thought in my oppinion, its simpy a "pre-programmed" response, we humans have these responses also....but we have the ability to go against them if we really want to. Reactions are based upon senory information (most of the time), thought is reason based on knowledge and cogiatation. I think that is the intial difference

[Silverstone]

Originally Posted by Gingerbread_Dead_People

lol that is actually a good point by damaging the brain it (probably) affects the mind which obviously suggests the mind and body are connected howver it does not explain if one is physical and the other is not. U wont believe it but there is also a theory that concerns the realtion between the mind and body when brain damage has occured.

It's not a matter of whether I believe something or not. I take all possibilities into consideration.

I don't know if I'm grasping just what you're getting at completely or not... but... the brain works through a series of electrical signals. If these signals are cut off or modified in any way, the brain works different.

BUT...

Mind and Brain are two different things.

The brain is the physical object that empowers thinking and creates the "mind".

The "mind" is arguably you're little "space" that is not physical, but something created by the mental faculties.

Looking at brain damage, it appears the victims think different, so in order to continue this "mind" theory, you must take into account that when the physical brain is affected, one's mind is affected as well. This can lead to a conclusion that the mind is not physically there, but is directly affected by the physical brain. Thus, the mind could be considered physically connected to your body.

[Gingerbread Dead People]

Originally Posted by Silverstone

It's not a matter of whether I believe something or not. I take all possibilities into consideration.

I don't know if I'm grasping just what you're getting at completely or not... but... the brain works through a series of electrical signals. If these signals are cut off or modified in any way, the brain works different.

BUT...

Mind and Brain are two different things.

The brain is the physical object that empowers thinking and creates the "mind".

The "mind" is arguably you're little "space" that is not physical, but something created by the mental faculties.

Looking at brain damage, it appears the victims think different, so in order to continue this "mind" theory, you must take into account that when the physical brain is affected, one's mind is affected as well. This can lead to a conclusion that the mind is not physically there, but is directly affected by the physical brain. Thus, the mind could be considered physically connected to your body.

Im glad u take all things in to consideration and yea u are grasping what Im getting at. The problem with these theories (I find) is managing to explain them properly so tht others can understand, so Im glad some of what Ive said made sense to u.

I agree with u, the mind and the body are seperate things, the body is physical and the mind is non-physical, but they are still related as u have pointed out. Harming my body phsycally will register the sensation of pain in my mind, the damage is physical but the sensation is not ( I cannot take my pain and stick in a bottle....although tht wud be cool lol).

The brain damage thing is the same, damaging the brain will affect the mind.....but heres a question for u, when someone suffers severe brain damage, is that there mind is damaged/stops exisiting, or is it that the connection between body and mind is severed? Maybe the mind continues seperatly from the body, not necessarily still being able to function, but does it still remain.?
Does the brain really cause the mind to be (eg. the mind is produced by the brain), or does the mind actually co-exist with the brain, even if the brain dictates the working of the mind? Sounds like a stupid question, but like u said, its worth considering everything, thats the golden rule with philosophy.

From the sounds of what u are saying, Id say u are also a dualist

[Silverstone]

I'm not really sure if it's been tested or proven what happens to the victim's head after severe head trauma. But, it appears to directly affect it, therefor not cutting off the mind.

I know a couple of people that insist their mind can be separated from their physical being for a little bit if not as long as they want. These people are able to take unimaginable amounts of pain and not be phased one bit during. Afterwards, they would say they blocked out the pain completely and was not able to register any pain during. Neat stuff, but IMO they could just be withholding their pain-driven outbursts just to look cool.

[Gingerbread Dead People]

Yea I deffinitly agree that there is a "cause and effect" relationship between the brain and the mind, but wether the minds existence depends on the brain is a different matter.

The idea of blocking out pain and leaving the body is an interesting concept. I suppose its also related to astral projection and other outer body experiences. Are they really able to dissconect their mind from body or is it just a psychosomatic thing? Mayb they can dellude themselves in to thinking that they can do this, when in actual fact they cannot.

Thinking about that has made think about dualsim and dreaming. A dream takes place in our minds, we can even have what feels like physical sensations whilst in a dream, such as touch, smell, taste etc yet we are making no physical contact because these dream objects have been fabricated out of our imaginations. I kno that whilst u are dreaming ur brain is still functioning, and the connection to the mind is still there, but at this point the "cause and effect" realtionship seems a lot less distinct. Wud u agree or disagree with that?

[Silverstone]

Reading that was kinda confusing as I'm in a hurry, ha. But...

The brain is a powerful tool. Creating the mind is just another ability of the brain. Getting away from the "mind" concept for the moment... The brain controls the body to an impressive extent. One can actually "think" themselves into being sick.

I think you and I can agree 100% that the body and brain are one. They rely on each other directly, and cannot work correctly without the other. So we will refer to the brain and body as "one".

The mind's existence cannot be proven to be anything else but a concept. There is no tool to test it, to measure it, anything... The only thing that can continue is speculation.

[jerseyse410]

In the aspect of dualism vs. monism i tend to see myself as a dualist. now genesis 2:7-8 states that god made man from the earth. my body physically came from the earth and my physical corporeal body is one state. its something i can touch, feel, sense, see, taste, smell. its something that my brain can actively process because its physically part of me. as for the mind aka the spirit, the soul, the life force; genesis 6:3-4 state that humanity will be mortal because his (gods) spirit cannot remain in us because of our corrupt nature and therefore our life will be limited

In this aspect, our spirit is something that is completely separate from our body. our body can age, and eventually die but our spirit is not part of that process. in my belief the spirit will not remain with body in death. and that's where the duality of man, no, the dualism of life portrays itself. my mind, that which i use to process thoughts, think emotional thoughts, deal with my daily life is a product of my brain. NOW my personality, who i am, who i love, that is not my mind or my brain that is my soul, that is my established god given incorporeal spirit that will remain with me forever in eternity. i do believe that my spirit is part of who i am and in a possibility that while i remain on this earth alive, my presence on this earth is mono-istic as my body cannot survive without my spirit.

the passages in exodus 31:3-4 and exodus 35:31-32 state that god imbued our bodies with the spirit to understand, to posses knowledge, wisdom, skills. that is part of our spirit which is separate from our bodies that have to be taught everything apart from instinct. therefore the brain is part of our bodies and allows to think, and reason with logic but the spirit, the mind is part of our true selves and is separate as it allows us to feel, to love, to worship.

i think that's everything.

[Gingerbread Dead People]

Originally Posted by Silverstone

Reading that was kinda confusing as I'm in a hurry, ha. But...

The brain is a powerful tool. Creating the mind is just another ability of the brain. Getting away from the "mind" concept for the moment... The brain controls the body to an impressive extent. One can actually "think" themselves into being sick.

I think you and I can agree 100% that the body and brain are one. They rely on each other directly, and cannot work correctly without the other. So we will refer to the brain and body as "one".

The mind's existence cannot be proven to be anything else but a concept. There is no tool to test it, to measure it, anything... The only thing that can continue is speculation.

Lol I kno what u mean, I confused myself writing tht. Ill hav to appologise, its really hard to put these concepts in to words, so I hav a tendancy to try and type as fast as I think, so I dnt forget what I was gonna say. lol Im not even sure if that made sense!

I deffintly agree wit u bout the brain, psychosomatic effects are a really interesting thing, instead of the the body affecting the mind, in this case its vice versa. I also agree with u about lumping the brain and body as one, it makes this debate a lot easier in that respect.

Getting back to the mind: Although I agree wit u that the minds existence cannot b scientfically proven, I do beleive tht the fact that I think must mean there is a "space" (as u put it) for these thoughts to exist within, since they are non physical, so although that is not proof, I think it is at least "evidence" to suggest its existence. Also, what makes u so sure the brain creates the mind?

Originally Posted by jerseyse410

our spirit is something that is completely separate from our body. our body can age, and eventually die but our spirit is not part of that process. in my belief the spirit will not remain with body in death. and that's where the duality of man, no, the dualism of life portrays itself. my mind, that which i use to process thoughts, think emotional thoughts, deal with my daily life is a product of my brain. NOW my personality, who i am, who i love, that is not my mind or my brain that is my soul, that is my established god given incorporeal spirit that will remain with me forever in eternity. i do believe that my spirit is part of who i am and in a possibility that while i remain on this earth alive, my presence on this earth is mono-istic as my body cannot survive without my spirit.

in exodus 31:3-4 and exodus 35:31-32 that god imbued our bodies with the spirit to understand, to posses knowledge, wisdom, skills. that is part of our spirit which is separate from our bodies that have to be taught everything apart from instinct. therefore the brain is part of our bodies and allows to think, and reason with logic but the spirit, the mind is part of our true selves and is separate as it allows us to feel, to love, to worship.

i think that's everything.

A dualist theist...thts an interesting philosophical stance lol, but cool. Althogh I do not believe in "God" in a religious way, I do still believe in the concept of "god" as the highest form of conciousness and so I do think it has a place in this debate. From ur point of view, u hav seperated the soul and the mind in two, where as I would argue that they are one and the same. What u argue to be ur soul (eg ur personality etc), I would say is the result of all the decisions and experiences uve made/had in life and so unltimatly the soul is part of ur mind. I did get a little confused, bcuz u then split the soul in to spirit and soul...one of mind, one of body!

U said tht the mind is a product of the brain, however u also said tht our mind (the spirit.soul) is effectivley part of "God" (if Ive understood u correctly). That seems like a contradiciton, because god is supposed to be eternal, how cud we create a piece of god?

Although u worded it differently, u said: Our lives are limited but our soul/mind is not...I wud agree with this statement from my point of view. Our body is made of physical matter and therfore is bound by these rules, all matter has a birth and death. The mind however is non-material and so mayb the mind is eternal (like God) this wud make sense to me. The brain mayb needed t make the mind function, but not neccesarily needed in order for the mind to exist. The way u view our minds/soul as a piece of god, is simular to the way I view it. Instead of being part of god, I see it as each mind is like a drop of water, that has come from a vast pool of "potential" conciousness. I hope tht made some form of sense lol.

"my body cannot survive without my spirit.", How can u be sure of this, do animals qualify as having spirits or minds? If they do not then they appear to be able survive without them.

Uve bought up many thought-provoking things wit ur post

holy crap this was a long one ad it probably made no sense either lol. Congrats to anyone who read this